Rachel: Hi, this is Rachel, and I'm delighted to welcome you to this episode of What the Finance Now, this is the last episode for a while that I'll be recording solo, which I am absolutely thrilled about. We hope that you've been enjoying your time engaging with us online on Discord, Facebook, Instagram and Twitter. And as always, there's going to be links to those online spaces in the episode transcription and show notes. I did also want to give a friendly reminder that we have a Patreon where you can subscribe to additional What the Finance content for as little as $3 a month. Now, finally, this episode was recorded on the lands of the Dakota and Lanafe people. We recognize and support their sovereignty, express our appreciation for the stereotype of our natural resources, and seek to demonstrate our commitment to dismantle the systems of oppression that negatively impact our black and brown kit. Now, on to the episode.
Rachel: Welcome to this episode of What the Finance Will be talking tonight with Nevada Littlewolf and Brett Grant about reparations and indigenous sovereignty and what that looks like. Um, Nevada Littlewolf has a long history of advocating for minoritized groups. Now, she and I first met as aspiring elected officials who are being trained by the White House Project, which is now vote run lead. She went on to be the first woman on the city council in Virginia, Minnesota and is now doing just an incredible amount of work to facilitate systemic change through community-led processes. And brett Grant is her business partner. So, thank you both for joining me here on this episode of What the Finance
Brett: Thank you for having us.
Rachel: As we’re kind of getting into this conversation of reparations. I guess kind of just if anybody has been listening to What the Finance for a while. I don't think that it's a mystery to them that at least the two of us on the team are not real big fans of colonialism and the impacts that that has on the folks that were already living here. Right. And also the folks that were brought here against their will to build this nation that we're living in now. But just to define what that means when we're talking about Reparations, we're really talking about addressing, at least to my mind right. Um, a long history of disenfranchising people and what it means to bring everyone to what is actually a level playing field based on hundreds of years of discriminatory policies. So I guess kind of my own understanding of what this means. Would you guys say that that is correct and what brought you into this field of work that you're doing right now?
Nevada: Yeah, I mean, I agree with that. I think that Brett and I really started working together around Reparations with Representative Karen Clark, and we really were looking at it from the framework of American Indian and Black Minnesotans and wanted to make sure that as we were talking about reparations in Minnesota, that we were doing that together as cultural communities. And that we understood that there were different needs and different histories for our communities. And at the same time, there was a lot of, uh, opportunity in terms of building power together. And really, Brett, I think you should talk about this because you were really one of the lead organizers around that reparations work and how we had the first people's hearing.
Brett: In that sense, you're right.
Brett: And, um, I want to say thank you to Representative Clark and also Representative, uh, Susan Allen, who was part of the initial work around some of those early reparations bills in Minnesota, um, that were co authored by them. Representative Clark was always kind of like a mentor to me in terms of helping me understand the legislative process. Um, when I was working at Voices for Racial Justice, and, um, she one day said, I've been working with some organizers around a reparations bill. Would you be interested? And I said, yeah. And the unique thing, uh, like Nevada said, it was that, ah, it was focused on, um, American Indian Minnesotans and African American Minnesotans. I think that's the language of the bill in a reparations framework in Minnesota. And so I thought that was really amazing also because of kind of my own personal values of working for racial justice in a kind of multiracial, multiethnic framework, uh, multicultural, uh, framework. And so, um, this was close to the time when Representative Clarke was getting ready to retire, but right before she retired, before the start of the I think it was 2019, I forgot maybe 2017, I forgot legislative session. But we had a what was called a people's hearing that was just amazing. I mean, there had to be some kind of divinity about that, because it was like I think the session was going to start like January 4 or 8th, and it happened on the fourth or a few days in January, and it was just packed. We got the Senate. And the unique thing about it was that in the room that we had in the space where the Senators usually sit, that was reversed, the roles were reversed. Where the community members took up those seats, most of the Senators and the legislators who came sat in the audience. And so it was just optically and symbolically, like the power dynamics were switched. And it was really powerful. That and also what was said, um, the different testimonials that were heard.
Rachel: That just sounds amazing. So I guess now, as I'm thinking through this too, just like with reparations legislation, do you guys think that taking, um, it in a state by state approach is ultimately going to be more effective than nationally, like top down, or is it kind of like a both and situation?
Nevada: You know, in my mind, I think it's a both. And I do a lot of political and policy work and I'm currently working on a state constitution here in Minnesota. But I also know that at the federal level, um, we have a Congressperson who is introducing the same or similar law, right? And so I think what it does is it really helps bolster work that people are doing in states, helps bolster national movement, and then the national work helps bolster the work that's happening locally in States. The big part of the question that we had, because the bill, um, that was introduced on reparations was really to create a commission to study reparations in Minnesota. And really, as Brett said, it was for, um, the AfricanAmerican and the American Indian communities of Minnesota. And so it wasn't even the bill wasn't saying the reparations should be XYZ. It was really saying we need our communities to have space and resources to come together to talk about what reparations look like and then how we can implement reparations in Minnesota, given that there are different needs and there's different histories. And I think we heard a lot from tribal communities, um, indigenous people, about it looking different, right. Because of the treaties and because of the, um, status of sovereign tribal nations. And that political status is different. And that was understood, right, that there would be differences. But, uh, really the strength and the power of it was the fact that as cultural communities, we were standing side by side with each other to say we need to have reparations and we need to really have deep and meaningful conversations about this and really just start to talk about what that looks like. And I think, um, you know, for indigenous tribal communities and our tribal nations, it's a lot, um, a lot of work is being done right now on land back because of the Allotment Act did a lot of damage to our tribal communities in terms of taking even more land away from our nations, which a lot of our land was lost through the treaty process, right? And so the land that remained within the reservation boundaries, that there was other policy in the Allotment App that allowed for, um, white folks to come in and buy that land and then just sort of disintegrate the land base even more. And so I think that that's one of the big pieces around reparations for native folks, is just making sure that our land is whole and that we have our land, the land base that we agreed to in the treaties. Right? I think that there's other areas around the treaties where it's, like broken promises about having access to our resources and, um, our natural resources and those kinds of things, right? Like, I mean, there's a lot of issues with, like, pipelines coming through our land or, um, other, like, damaged mining interests that may damage the water, which then impacts, like, our wild rice, and making sure that those treaty rights are being upheld and that they're not. Again, disintegrated based on, um, colonialism, further.
Brett: Colonialism, that question about, uh, reparations and state, the relationship between states and the federal system, I think, again, the Minnesota legislation could provide a model or a good way to think about that, because the legislation in Minnesota was modeled after the federal legislation, HR 40. And the only difference is that so HR 40 at the federal level aims to create a commission to study reparation proposals, but it's aimed specifically for the AfricanAmerican community. So the unique aspect of Minnesota was that it took that model but said, hey, let's have both of these communities because of, um, the uniqueness of Minnesota situation. And so I think as other states think about reparations, they can use it as a model to fit it within the unique kind of nuances of their states.
Rachel: Yeah, uh, that absolutely makes sense to me.
Nevada: Yes, I think the border issue is an interesting one too, right. We think about borders like, I am a citizen of Leech Lake Nation and we think of our borders and then we talk about border cities, which are like Bemiji, right? It would be a border city to our Leech Lake Nation. So you think about boys? Fort tribe, where you and I are from the Iron Range. It would be, um, the border cities of Boise Fort Tribe would be like Virginia and, you know, like the, um, Iron Range towns. Right? But I do think that there's, because there is an issue related to kind of state the state, then we have the state boundary and then we kind of have um, the rest of the nation. And for us as native people, we actually our boundaries then go across that national border into Canada as well, because we have our tribal communities are in both United States and in Canada as Anishinaabe people. And then Dakota people in Minnesota, they were really pushed out of Minnesota by colonizers that came here. And so that was a really big question related to how do we address reparations for folks that are, uh, Dakota and were pushed into like South Dakota, for instance, and are no longer here, even though they had ties back into Minnesota. And so there was a lot of robust discussion about like, making sure that it is also, um, the ancestors of Dakota people who were from Minnesota, who lived here and had, um, so much taken from them and so much harm done to them. So I do think those issues around state and national are important conversations, but then also thinking about the tribal issues as well, because those are also sovereign tribal, they're nations, right?
Rachel: And I think I'm just kind of thinking about this in brand new, in real time here, as I'm thinking about border cities. But of course, a lot of what we think of now as Mexico European colonizers took a lot of that included for the United States. So I think, I imagine that that's probably your point is also extremely true in the southeastern part of the United States, or, I'm sorry, in the southwestern part of the United States as well, right. With people like, in the Navajo Nation, right. Because it's kind of the same idea. Right. That there are also those people that are living south of the United States border in Mexico that are the ancestors of people whose land was taken. And, oh my goodness. I think that those in power really. They would spend more money, I think than what would actually be appropriate for reparations to avoid claiming any sort of responsibility for the harm that was caused during a very brutal westward expansion across the United States. Just a little disheartening. So, anyway, I'm so sorry, as I'm also kind of thinking through getting land back and things like this, I'm also thinking about, uh, the harm that was done to families, both, uh, during the Transatlantic Slave trade and as families and children are being bought and sold and things like this, but then also for our native communities in terms of, like, boarding houses. And, um, the name of the program is escaping me now, but, um, native children were being placed into foster homes.
Nevada: Yeah, Residential Boarding Schools are a big part of the whole idea of, like, kill the Indian, Save the man, and taking away language, cultural practices, um, spiritual practices, connection to community, um, connection to the land itself, which is a part of, like, just seasonal practices related to food gathering and, um yeah, all of that. We know this that they're still finding bodies of children, um, in these buried by these residential boarding schools. And it's, um, you know, it's hundreds it's hundreds of children, right. Like, thousands of children, if you think about, across, uh, America and Canada, and that is harm that is, like we work on, in our communities around language, revitalization and food sovereignty. We work on issues related to reclaiming our cultural practices and ensuring that we have access to our virtual practices as well. So it's not something that can necessarily be quantified in, like, dollars and cents, for instance. But it is but the impact of it is it's immeasurable, and it's enormous.
Rachel: Right, and I think it's just I apologize. I'm trying to think of how to express this to me. It's infuriating that those empowers say, oh, you know, we're here to support families, and we're here to help, and we're here to write, like, all this lip service, right? Like, families should get the support that they need, and blah, blah, blah, whatever, but then there's nothing really to back that up. Right?
Nevada: Yeah. Brett and I have been working, I think, in sort of public policy in this, um, racial justice sphere for a long time, and that's why we started our business. Seven Teachings was really for us to have our business, but to be able to have conversations and help really create systemic change with our communities and for our communities and to think about. Um, we've done a lot of work with farmers, for instance, and BIPOC, uh, farmers, and I think that, um, around public policy and antiracist, uh, practice and racial justice, and, uh, it's been really, you know, it's a really incredible for us, I think, to have seven teachings and to be able to do this work together. Um again from an indigenous woman and Anishinaabekwe Leech Lake Nation citizen. Ah. And Brett, um, who represents the black community, and he has his own story and cultural experience that is different. Right. And we come together, really, because we know that people have to be able to share their own stories and have their own experiences, but then to be able to build those bonds and to create power together.
Brett: That's right. Yeah. And to ground our work in our cultural practices. For me, coming to Seven Teachings as an African American man, I was looking for something to ground my work and something rooted in who I am as an African American man. So I went to the principles called Kanuni Saba, which is Swahili for seven principles. And so that's how we kind of made the connection between Kanuni Saba seven principles and the Seven Teachings that Nevada can talk more about. So we both were able to find something in our cultures to really kind of help us move forward in this work.
Rachel: Yeah. So I'm wondering, just with Seven Teachings, if you could talk if you'd be willing to talk a little bit more about kind of where that idea came from, because, uh, it's not one that I'm as familiar with as I would like and imagine, uh, that is true for others that might be listening.
Nevada: Yeah, I'm happy to share more information, too, afterwards with you, Rachel, but I think seven I mean, Seven Teachings was really birthed out of our collective work together on the reparations work. It really came from that place of at the time, we were bringing together cultural communities from across the Twin Cities and across the state to talk about reparations and what that would mean after we had the people's hearing, just to continue community conversations, to think about, what is this? You know, what are the areas we really need to be building connections with each other? How do we need to be understanding our communities together? How is it that dominant weight culture keeps us separated, keeps us fighting with each other? Um, and what are the ways for us to really build together? And I think that is really where we started talking about the concept of Seven Teachings, and it was actually driven by this idea, uh, to purchase a greenhouse in northeast Minnesota and create a cultural kind of a center there around racial justice, gender justice, and social justice. Right.
Nevada: Like thinking about how we bring our communities together. But we wanted to make sure that it was led by our communities. And so that's where we kind of ended up going in the direction of saying, okay, well, we need to own our own business, right? We both work for nonprofit organizations. We've done a lot of work in the community around campaigns or political work or public policy. But how do we actually have ownership in something that we will be leading and it will be ours? And so that's how we started Seven Teachings, and, um, I think that it has evolved over time. During the pandemic, we made a decision not to move forward with purchasing the greenhouse. However, we, I think, got a lot stronger in terms of how we were thinking about approaching the work and working with people. And I think it's been really good work. We've worked with a group of white farmers who are very interested in doing antiracist practice, and they wanted to take ownership over their own place, uh, in that where it was not our responsibility to help them figure it, sort out their issues, but that they needed to take the time to do that. Um, but they needed some help and guidance, right? So we did some work with, um, white farmers on helping them create a pilot, really, like, ah, kind of the first iteration of their work that I think they will continue to do, um, with new cohorts of white farmers. We also worked with black, Indigenous, and other farmers in a cohort, um, around emerging beginning farming practices. And then I've also led a group of BIPOC farmers around public policy and helping them understand what does it mean to, like, pass legislation. How to engage with the legislative process. And then ensuring. Again. That there's solidarity. That you're not being pitted against each other. And you have your needs are being. Like. At the forefront of the conversation. Not having other people make those decisions for you. Because, uh, we know this, like, we know this completely and wholly that our communities have solutions, and we know how to solve those solutions better than anyone else. And so, really, I think that that's, like, the work that Seven Teachings has done is making sure that those voices that are most impacted, particularly in communities of color and indigenous communities, are at the center of the, um, community.
Brett: Yeah, and I wish we kind of had those teachings and those principles when we were doing the reparations work, because, um, I think that's what was missing, honestly. Uh, a lot of that work ended up in really hurtful places. Um, and so I was grateful for Seven Teachings to be able to come back and almost like rebirth. Nevada used that word. It was birthed out of how it was birthed. And I think that's the right word to rebirth it, because the way that the reparation work ended for me was not in a good place, um, just in terms of the misinformation and trying to fit some deep spiritual work into a legislative timeline, um, between our two communities was really hurtful, and so, yeah. I'm really grateful for Seven Teachings and what's evolving from that and what's emerging.
Rachel: Without anybody having said it. One of the themes that I'm kind of taking in for myself is that it's folks who are coming from that colonizer background. Who are actively engaged in anti racist work. Really. For the most part. Need to, Uh, excuse my language but step the hell on back and then kind of take on the work that is being handed. Rather than handing the work to somebody else. And whether that's engaging in the legislative process, or if you don't necessarily have the space for that, being part of those community groups where you can engage somebody who is following rather than doing what you're used to, and being the person who's leading that, that is something that is also critically important for people who are engaged in that antiracist work.
Nevada: I think it's really hard for people to, um, cede power, right? Like, if they are in a position of power. And, um, it's very hard for them to say, okay, we should be listening to other people, right? Like, we should be engaging other ideas. And I think that that is why I think the legislative process is really challenging. And I think it is why, like, as Brett was describing, we were doing the work, but what we were discovering was that there is a legislative process and there's a community process. Um, and those two are connected. They are. However, um, they don't operate with those same values, right? So I think that is we think about the seven teachings. It's like about truth, honesty, love, bravery, thinking about, like, these things that really guide us in the way that we have bimadozuan, which is a good life, right? Like, the way that these teachings will help us make sure that we have all the things that we need and we have that good life if we're following those teachings and those practices. But those things don't always align with, like, a legislative process. And I think that's where it becomes challenging. And it's hard because, um, and then you also have a House and a Senate and a governor, and in Minnesota, we've been in a pretty polarized environment, I would say, in the last couple of years, especially. That makes it even harder to do important and good work.
Brett: You know, um, going back to your statement about kind of white people and how they show up to this work, I was actually grateful for some of the conversations I had with white organizers after we did this work on reparations and some of our debriefing sessions. They were really kind of grappling with this idea of whether or not it was appropriate for them to participate in reparations in an organized way. And if it was appropriate, they were struggling with, well, how do we show up in an organized way? Or if not in an organized way, what can we do? And I had some really deep conversations just around those themes, those topics. Um, so I appreciate that because I felt like those were sincere questions. Um, and really trying to understand what can we do?
Rachel: I know, just, like, speaking for myself so much that I think is it's relationship based? Right. I'm not going to say, hey, random black person on the street, could you please explain, uh, Systemic Racism to me? No. Um right. That's not how that's going to go down. And if anybody thinks that that's a great idea and you're listening to this, please stop. It's not a great idea. Um, but when you are right, I think, to me, as you're describing this, you're engaging this work together, and you're kind of building that coalition. That's the time to say, hey, I've been doing this work, and I'm really hung up on how do I participate in this movement without co-opting this movement?
Brett: That's insightful, because that's so true. Yeah. Those were relationships that I had. So, yeah, that's really insightful.
Rachel: Well, I want to be, of course, kind of respectful of both you guys'time, since you have families and lives and an evening to get to. Um, so just kind of closing us out and recognizing that you want to speak for yourselves. If you are thinking about what reparations would look like for you and your family, like, in your wildest dreams, what does that look like for you? That question might be too big.
Nevada: Uh, I think it's a great question. I think it's a beautiful question. And I like the way that you phrased it. To say this is, like, what does it look like for you? Right. I mean, I think already talked about this a bit, but it really is about having access to land and in our community, right. And being able to, for instance, like, go to my tribal community and see my dad and know that we have a place in a home there that, um, when we're, um, in Minnesota, that we have people are respectful to us and they understand the contributions that we have brought in the contributions that we have brought, but also continue to bring to the state. And I think it's also like making sure that we have access to clean water and clean air, and again, our food and our cultural practices are so intertwined with our spirituality and being able to freely participate in all of that in a way that is supported. And I think one of the hardest things for me, living here in Minneapolis and moved here about five years ago, and m I'm on, um, near Franklin Avenue, so I'm near the American Indian corridor. It's just seeing so many homeless American Indian people, it's heartbreaking. It's devastating. And to me, it's, like, absolutely wrong. It's, like the most wrong thing that could be happening in our state. And so I think that they're especially, like, when you think about you're talking about the land acknowledgement, and folks doing land acknowledgements, I think is a good step, but it's only a statement, it's not an action. And so if you really understand about, um, if you really want to have a deeper understanding of those land acknowledgements, it's about who's been displaced and then who is, who's homeless, who doesn't have access to the things that make their lives, like, safe and healthy and whole. So, I mean, that's the way I think about reparations, which is not like a lot of times, I think folks are like, reparations is just like, you want money and you want, like, a paycheck or something like that. And it's like, that isn't how I think about reparations. I think about reparations in terms of really, um, more holistically and how can that help? And I think that that's why I really started to think about other public policy efforts as also being forms of reparations, Right? So, like, the farm policy work or the education policy work or housing policy work, there's ways to really make sure that those who are most impacted, uh, have access to resources, and there's ways for us to do that. I believe it can be done. I know that it's been really hard, but I believe that these things can be done.
Brett: Yeah, I do too. And I think a lot of it for me is education. Um, a lot of it fell apart in Minnesota because of just lack of education about African Americans and what reparations means to African American communities and what reparations means to American Indian communities. And so that brings into the equation I don't have the word, but the equation, like solidarity and those kinds of things. Um. It's not just the acquisition of material goods. But it has to be like some kind of self analysis going on with that. So that you don't just get access to a bunch of material resources and then tear everything down because you haven't dealt with the impediments within the self. Whether it's ego. Misinformation. Lack of education that will cause you not to be in solidarity with each other. So I don't know how reparations can deal with that. But that needs to be in there.
Rachel: Right? Well, I mean, um, I could go for a while, but I think, uh, especially when I think about the contributions of enslaved folks, um, priest of award. And then I think about, um, folks from a colonizer background who go, hey, I worked really hard for all this stuff. Like, no education is a key piece to go. Like, maybe, uh, you did work really hard, but there's a whole bunch of other people who worked way harder than you or your ancestors did to get you to where you're sitting in the seat right now. So I don't know. I couldn't agree more. So if folks are interested in, um, learning more about studying teachings or what you guys are, uh, either doing together or individually, where can people catch up with you?
Nevada: Well, we, um, have a website that's under construction right now, so I won’t send you there. But I think if you really want to reach, um, me directly, you could email me at nevada@seventeachingsmn.com. So just nevada@seventeachingsmn.com.
Brett: And mine is the same, but just Brett. B-R-E-T-T, brett@seventeachingsmn.com
Rachel: Awesome.
Rachel: Thank you guys both so much for joining me for this conversation this evening. I really appreciate it having you on.
Nevada: Thank you. Rachel, this is really great.
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