Disinformation
Cheyenne: We are so excited to get into our topic today, but we have a little housekeeping to get out of the way first.
Rachel: Our show is made possible, in part, by our patrons on Patreon. For as little as $3 a month, you can get episode shout-outs, access to topic polls, and be able to listen to hilarious outtakes.
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Rachel: For our episode this week, what we actually wanted to talk about were the costs associated with disinformation and misinformation, and I thought it would be helpful just to identify the difference between those two things. Really the difference is intent. With disinformation, your intent is to actively mislead people. With misinformation, you're unintentionally misleading people. And I think it's probably something that most of us are guilty of. Right. Like I think all of us have, like, we've shared a post on social media saying something like you don't, I'm sharing this just in case it might be helpful to somebody, you know, or something that, that, right. Like your intent usually is good, but you're doing harm anyway because the information that you're sharing is not true. So there's our, there's our basis. So, the reason that I started thinking about this has actually been a little bit of a story, so not a super long one, but so there's another podcast that I really enjoy listening to. It's called “There Are No Girls On The Internet”. If you're listening to our podcast, you need to be listening to this podcast too. The host, Bridget Todd, she did a miniseries called Disinformed, and it was talking about how to identify a disinformation on the internet and also what you can do to combat it. Now that was shortly after the January insurrection. When Congress is going to certify who truly won evidential election in the United States, what a great timely I thought was really a, the appropriate response to something that was just a hot mess, but it didn't actually hit me super close to home, weirdly, because I know folks who were in the insurrection side, uh, somewhere recently when I started looking for clients to edit their podcasts and somebody came to me, but if they didn't come to me, um, I sent them a pitch and they sent me an episode to edit and I was really excited until I started listening to the episode and it became super clear very quickly that this episode was not something that I think deserved to be out in the world, because it was completely false, the information that was being shared. And so, kind of on a whole new level, I was like, okay, well what's my responsibility here, as somebody who wants to help people get their stories out into the world. And also, you know, when it comes to like the pandemic and other things like that, what are the costs that are associated with misinformation? And so, then I came to Cheyenne and I was like, Hey, I think we should talk about this show. And she's wonderful and very accommodating. And I agreed that we should talk about this on the show. So here we are!
Cheyenne: Not only am I wonderful and accommodating, I also do not deal well with bullshit.
Rachel: True. Also true. She's accommodating if you are honest and straightforward
Cheyenne: And I I'm pretty much always in favor of calling general ridiculousness out. So, this is, this is pretty much right up my alley. Um, when Rachel came to me and said that she wanted me to do this episode, I obviously, immediately enthusiastically said yes, as I most always do
Rachel: that partnership that we have, I think with ideas that we each have.
Cheyenne: Oh yeah, yeah yeah yeah. It's very reciprocal. Yes. Yeah. But a big part of the reason that I thought that this was so important was because I feel like if we've learned anything in the last couple of years, it's that misinformation and disinformation, they have a much greater effect on everything we initially think that they do. And so talking about this and I, I, I feel like now might be a good time to like, apologize if people haven't already figured it out. This might be kind of heavy.
Rachel: A hundred percent. This is going to be a heavy episode.
Cheyenne: So like, if you're not in a space or you just, this is not your thing, like we will not take offense at all. If you don't listen, like. Skip it, listen to it when you can, whatever it is, but we're going to talk about some pretty uncomfortable and very real stuff. So . . .
Rachel: We'll also have an audio transcription of this on our website. So right. If you don't want to listen to it right off the bat, you can kind of skim the transcription to see are you going to be up for listening or not? I will also say that, like for myself, we've, we've actually had this on the docket for a few weeks and then have decided to talk about other things. And I've actually been very grateful for that because it's kind of helped me to expand my own thoughts about it. So initially I was just thinking about, um, like dollar amounts. When I was, when I was getting ready for this show, I actually listened to another podcast.
Uh, from the Berkman Klein center for internet and society at Harvard called the true cost of misinformation.
Cheyenne: Well, how was that for a source?
Rachel: Right, right. I'll link to this also in our audio transcription so you can listen to it too. But one thing that they talked about that really stood out to me, The opinion of the people at this society and the name of the society is a mouthful, and so I apologize. I'm just going to say society. Is that any organization that brokers in information. Right. So, we're talking a Google, Yahoo, Facebook, Twitter, all those guys. They need to hire a team of librarians that helps sift through the crap. And I'm actually just going to read the quote straight from, they also have an audio transcription and I appreciate that because it works well for my brain. So they, they said “I’ve argued in the past for hiring 10,000 librarians to help Google and Facebook and Twitter sort out the curation problem. So, when people are looking for accurate information, they're not looking for opinion, they can find it. If you think about Google search results, the things that become popular are free. Anything behind a paywall is not something that people are going to continue to return to. And so, as a result, Google search becomes the kind of quality of free been outside a record store every once in a while. There is a gem at the top, but not usually.” So then as I was thinking through that, I was like, oh, how much library and expect to make in a year? The answer to that question is 67,000. As a median. So you might argue that hiring 10,000 library events it's cost prohibited. Right. Cause you're looking at millions of dollars. But when you think about the cost, having the misinformation out there, it's way more, right. Because it's costing human lives and you can't ever put a dollar value on one of them.
Cheyenne: Um, gosh, that's a whole other conversation for a whole other episode because insurance companies literally do that.
Rachel: Yeah, right? Like it's just, Nope, it's just intangible. Right. Like you could have life insurance. Sure. That say that a person is only worth as much as their life insurance policy. And that's a hard no. But it's not just lives lost. Right? Like it's medical emergencies and inaction. I mean, and even things that might seem relatively small. Right? Like, and I mean, in the scheme of like, if people's lives are your benchmark. Relatively small, right? Like the cost of not knowing how something happens might mean that you graduate with a master's degree, having borrowed the maximum amount that you're eligible for in student loans every semester and going, “Uhhh wait, I don't remember ever borrowing this money”, but you signed a waiver with your school that you forgot that you signed. And now you're a hundred, you know, and now you have over a hundred thousand dollars in student loan debt, right? Like things that cost us like real money and real experiences, uh, because the information that we need is hidden.
Cheyenne: Right. It's funny to me that the, the, the quote that you picked was about that paywall for information. And it's kind of funny to me because. When we first put this episode on the list of ones to record, I immediately went with the actual, like immediate cost of information, such as newspaper subscriptions, or those types of like that access to information. Yeah. The reason that I went that way immediately was because I am, I feel like just as guilty as everybody else, if I hit a paywall for an article that I'm only mildly invested in, I, I go back, I find a different source, and I also realized that there are some sources that I pay for that I find valuable enough to pay for. But I don't know how common that is. Among our generation, to be honest. Right. And the other thing that I find so interesting is, and I don't know if this is just something that I didn't notice when I was younger or if it truly has gotten more divisive, but I feel like news outlets are more opinion than fact-based reporting than they ever have been. I feel like 15-20 years ago, you could pick up a set of three different newspapers and read pretty much the same information. And now I feel like that's just not the case. You, you get three different, completely different stories on what's happening. And I feel like the reason that that is so concerning is because even as somebody who I, obviously I have my biases, we all do. There's not a person out there that doesn't have a bias. I try really hard to, to keep myself educated and to make sure that I step outside of my comfort zone. And I don't just go with, with the information that I agree with because that's the easiest route because, spoiler, I’m not always. Right. And so, I try to make sure that I'm, I'm educating myself on whatever it is that I find important enough to go out and look into. Yeah. Often that means seeking out new sources that I wouldn't necessarily find to be in agreement with my beliefs. And, and when you talk about that paywall and I get there and I'm like, oh no, I'm not spend money to support you because what I don't agree with pretty much anything that you do too. Um, I already know that I'm going to disagree with this, but I'm not going to give you, my money. And there are people on both sides that do that. And so, what's interesting to me is that like, they could probably get better readership if they didn't have that paywall, like, which is essentially what new sources want. They want that, that readership or that viewership. But I also think that it would benefit us all. If I also, a part of me feels like maybe that it wouldn't be so biased if it was accessible to everyone, you know? Um, and also I went on a huge tangent there. I'm sorry.
Rachel: It’s okay! Well, and really. . . I was just thinking about what you were saying. Cause I appreciated it a lot. One thing that they don't think a lot of people realize, and honestly, I wouldn't even realize if it wasn't kind of part of my day job it's for those of us who are lucky enough to have gone to a college or university. One of the benefits that you have as an alumni, even one who didn't graduate is that you always have access to the library at your college or university. So, you can always access any of the newspaper subscriptions that they have. Journal articles. You just have to remember your login information. You can always call I.T. If you don't remember, they'll help you. Here's a pro tip on Google scholar. You can actually link your school's login information to your Google scholar profile. It'll pull up all the articles that you have access to through your school's library.
Cheyenne: Interesting.
Rachel: Yeah. I'll try to find it tutorial to link in our show notes here, because that makes it super easy, right? Like if you're just, if you go to Google scholar and you type in the cost of misinformation, well, I can see it every single journal article, but I have access to as an alumni of Metropolitan State University. And it's a lot.
Cheyenne: I should look into that because I knew that, but I didn't like, I guess I didn't really remember it until just.
Rachel: Well, I didn't. I learned about it in college. Like, I didn't know, before. And then I had to take a full disclosure, I had to take a study skills class and I thought it was stupid because by the time that I, I took it, I'd already been in college for four years and mostly it was, but I learned that one thing in the class that has no stayed with me for over a decade.
Cheyenne: Working at a school, we had access as employees. We had access to tons of publications as well, like tons of new sources, but also just like super fun, like subscriptions to magazines and stuff that was really, really useful. And then even when I worked in the private sector before my previous employer had a company access to certain news outlets, which was super convenient.
Rachel: So, as I was thinking more about the cost of this information, the other thing that I started to wonder about was it's our reaction to misinformation kind of as a result of mental distress. And I started thinking about that because the school board that I am on, like many across the country have been debating mask mandates that started out the school year. And at my school district, we did implement one K through 12. All of our students had in place are going to be obliged to wear masks in the building. There is a small and extremely vocal group that is super unhappy about this decision, to the point, I would say like for myself, there've been times where I've, and by the time that are excellent listeners, I'll do this too, this is going to be long past, but over the course of a couple of weeks, as this has been unfolding in my school district, I’ve had a few points where I've actually like legitimately felt unsafe. Because of how wound-up people were and because of the types of people that were getting wound up or ones I least like on Facebook that I were seeing would have like, uh, guns in their Facebook profile patients and things like that. So, I thought what it. What if, because of the bullying that we experienced on my school board, we just went, you know what, not worth it. Never mind, no masks, kids can just quarantine if there's an outbreak in their class. And I don't know that there's a super good way to quantify that, but, um, I did find the world economic forum is actually report that by 2030, which is not that far away. Uh, the global cost of mental health problems is going to be over $6 trillion. And so I have to wonder like, uh, for the cost piece, how much of that are policy makers like me and my colleagues were just saying. Okay, for our own mental health. We're not going to sit down and up to the bullies. We're just going to give into what they want. And that I, I don't know. I don't know if that $6 trillion is also the result of the poor policy decisions that are made due to bullying, adult to adult, for people who should know about, I'm still thinking about that nugget too. Right? You're going to fault people for making it decision that keep them and their family safe from folks. So threatened violence, like. Than any of us would, but then also has a general overall terrible impact on our communities.
Cheyenne: The the quote that's been kind of sticking with me since we started this conversation tonight, is I feel like you have to like, understand my brain to understand how this is even sort of even remotely related. I'm going to put it out there anyway, because the thing that's been sticking out to me tonight is I saw something on Facebook and I so rarely am on Facebook now. Like I obviously haven't. Facebook profile, but I am pretty much never on there because it's unfortunate place to be. I choose different social media to.. .
Rachel: Engage in? Yeah. Yeah.
Cheyenne: I have a very specifically curated Instagram, which is much more enjoyable, but I saw something on Facebook when I went to go check something earlier. The end of last week, I think it was. And what it was, was that going off of the mask thing? It, it said, uh, and I, I don't think I'm gonna quote it directly because I don't have it in front of me, but I'm gonna do my best to get it as close as possible.
Basically, it says that the CDC is now recommending that even vaccinated people wear masks at this point. And the reason that that is is for vaccinated people who may be carrying COVID to not spread it. And so those of us who are wearing masks are doing so to protect those who have either chosen or for whatever reason cannot get vaccinated. And I think that, like, I think the reason that, that stuck with me so much is I truly feel like this pandemic has been. So impacted by disinformation that that's now something that somebody had to put out there, like to break something down so simply to be like, Hey, we're doing this thing. Like the people who believe this all along and you didn't, we still believe so strongly. And the thing that we're doing that's right. That we're going to do it, even though we've disagreed all along, we're still going to protect you. Even though we disagreed all along. And for me, what it, what it really boils down to when it comes to that cost of, of disinformation admins, misinformation is it's not just a monetary value, like in general, what are your values? Because I can still, I can disagree with someone, but like, The compassionate human in me is like, even if you call me an idiot, I'm still gonna wear a mask just to protect you, because I don't want to get you sick, you know, like,
Rachel: Right. That's it, this is going to sound so callous. I mean, I hope that it does it, but it might, if you really are just talking about it in an economic sense, our economy and our financial systems work because we care about each other and we trust them. Like that, that's it. So, you get this total corruption of the social contract that people in communities watch out for each other. Like it's, I'm trying to think of something more extreme than a slippery slope. It's like a slippery slope to the bottom. It's like a sheer drop from like a rock face.
Cheyenne: It's like a skating rink on the side of a fucking mountain.
Rachel: Yes. Thank you, that’s perfect! Yeah, I think having like some actionable tips to actually identify a disinformation or misinformation, I think might be a good way to close things out. So, really, you are a human who exists on the internet in any way, and you want to share something. Literally the best thing that you can do is stop. For like five minutes and think about it, right? Like, why is this making me feel the way that I'm feeling process those feelings? It's not going to be comfortable. It's going to suck. You need to do it anyway. When you're done. Think what is the agenda of this person? That's sharing this information, right? If it's a news article, where are they getting their money? Where are they getting their sources there? Are there a bunch of different ones or is everybody just repeating a sound bite from one human. It's every single news article that you encounter is go in an echo chamber of the other very likely that it's not as accurate as you might like. And then if you've okay dove into it and you're not, you're really not sure. Right? Like, does this thing true? Is it not, then ask somebody? But don't share it on social media until you're sure that the information is actually true and valid. So, like, I always. Take a picture of this for Instagram. Cause I think it would have apply.I still have my school journal from first grade, six year old, Rachel wrote in her, in her school term. That I was working hard to take my time. I'm and I'm still working really hard on taking my own advice. If all of us could work really hard to take our time, we'd actually get more truth out there in the world.
Cheyenne: So that reminded me of an, an, an acronym that I used to come across, working in healthcare. And it is, THINK, is it true? Is it helpful? Is it inspiring? Is it necessary? And is it kind? THINK before you share.
Rachel: Just do it. Please, I’m begging you! Work hard to take your time.
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