Living Abroad

Cheyenne: Thank you for joining us for this episode of What the Finance, there are a few things we like to mention at the top of each episode.

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Cheyenne: Second. It would mean a lot to us. If you could support our show through Patreon starting at $3 a month, you can get episodes, shout-outs, access to topic polls, and get to listen to some pretty hilarious out.

Rachel: And third, as we seek it to be a more inclusive show, we want to acknowledge that colonialism is an ongoing process, and capitalism, which we regularly decry is part of this process. We are recording this episode on the ancestral land of the Dakota and Ojibwe people, and we recognize our sovereignty and express our gratitude at being here.

Welcome to another episode of What the Finance. Uh, Cheyenne and

I are both super thrilled to be joined by Steph Fuccio, who is the head of podcast editing plus, which is a global community of audio professionals, which if you are an audio professional, you should totally join for this a fantastic community. And.

Here because Steph has spent most of her adult life abroad, although she grew up in the United States and we have been curious and Cheyenne and I for some time about what all is involved when you're looking to leave the United States and move up. So Steph, welcome to the show.

Steph: Thank you so much, Rachel, and Cheyenne for having me on here. I'm very excited.

Cheyenne: Thank you so much for joining us. I feel like I say this every single time. Now this is an episode we've wanted to do for a very long time, and we've been waiting to find somebody to talk to about it. Perfect.

Steph: Fantastic. No pressure, no pressure.

And then we just need to lose there's I'm coming to from Rome, Italy, which is a very noisy city. So just in case there's any residual city noise, that is the flavor of world.

Cheyenne: I would not have assumed that about Rome, to be honest, I think I would have like thought the opposite. Hmm.

Steph: That's possibly more than the north, but I haven't spent much more time up there, but Rome itself is very concrete.

Very, you know, the typical scooters and things like that, where they're noisy.

Cheyenne: That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. As you're saying it I'm like, it makes sense. Yeah.

Rachel: I think they did it kind of ground us in your journey, Steph before you moved abroad. Where, where were you coming from in the United States?

Steph: Yeah. Good question. I was born and raised on the east coast, but honestly, I spent about 10 years in different cities in California before I went abroad. Well, before I went abroad for the first time as an adult, because I had been abroad with my parents when I was a child, but the first time solo was when I was dirty and I was coming from I coming from, I think at that point I was loosely based in San Francisco.

Rachel: So then was it your, like travel with your parents that inspired you to move to move abroad? Or was it something else?

Steph: I don't know. I guess the thing is when we went, when I was a child, it was to most 99% of the time. Was it. Like relatives houses, because my parents were both from Italy. So we went back to visit family and as a kid sitting in someone's kitchen for hours on end every day, wasn't extremely exciting.

But there was something about getting to see other places along the way to our family's houses that I think did plant the seed in me where I knew that. Different. And there was other, there were other food and other flavors and other sounds, and I think it did plant a seed that I wanted to see more. And so, yeah, my, my whole childhood teenagehood, I always thought I want to go see a lot more of that. It just, there wasn't a combination of finances and time and knowledge on how to do so. It didn't happen for very long.

Rachel: And then I know that there's been a lot of moving around the continent. In the last several years. Has that been intentional?

Steph: No, that's been very pandemical. It should be a word

my, my living abroad has been in pretty distinct unintentional, but pretty distinct, uh, buckets, I guess. One is when I would backpack for a few months and then come back and recoup financially. And the second is when I taught English overseas. And that was the biggest chunk that was about 12 or 14 years, something like that.

And then the third chunk has been when, uh, two years ago, two months before the pandemic, my husband and I tried to move to Germany to settle down. And we were both job hunting when the pandemic hit. We can guess how that turned out. And so we accidentally have turned into digital nomads for the time being until something more stable in a place we want to be in comes along.

So yeah, the moving around every few months now is not intentional. No, do I want it to be long-term, but it's, it's better than not. That makes any sense.

Rachel: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it guess what the, with your buckets of times spent living abroad, like in that first bucket, if you're, you know, backpacking and the coming back home, what did that, what does that look like for you in a money sort of way?

Steph: Oh, very messy. Um, I had actually moved before I moved abroad. I had moved back to the east coast just after graduating from university at the ripe old age of 30. And when I came back to California, because I realized I no longer a comforter, I didn't, I didn't fit in. Not that they did in the first place that I really didn't fit in.

So I went back to college. With almost nothing less. Like I've got written rid of all my stuff and I left my job and all that side, no attachments, but I was back in the place that I there's the state that I can through the motor home. And so I very accidentally ended up kind of living in hostels, like long-term hostels for.

And I met all of these international travelers that were traveling on very little money. And I realized that I had been waiting and waiting and waiting to save up tons of money to go travel and, or live abroad when I didn't need to. And so I ended up staying longer in the hostels to just kind of do that.

Not accidental research, but just to kind of meet these people and get a sense of how they did it. And I was like, I could have moved into an apartment sooner, but I was like, no, I, I love this atmosphere. I'm learning about all these people or these cultures and how they're traveling on almost nothing.

And so I ended up spending, I want to say six or nine or 10 months in different hostels in mostly in San Francisco. Because if someone with like a California driver's license, staying in a hostel. Kind of tricky because you know, it's meant for travelers, but I was, I don't know. I just love the atmosphere and I was learning so much.

So I took a lot of what I learned from those folks on what to do and what not to do and how flexible to be and ended up getting a job in a hostile, ironically. In Rome, Italy in 2002, 2002. And that was the first time that I went abroad as an adult. Cool. And

abandoned things might be different now than they were then.

Rachel: But to get that kind of a job to you, is that like a special sort of visa that you have to work in a hostile.

Steph: I love that you think it was legit. I just turned 50 a couple of months ago. I'm like, how, why did I do these things? No, it was completely under the table. And, uh, yeah, there were two of us that ran the whole place. And then the th the owners would come in occasionally and go. That's okay, everything's fine. And they'd leave again.

And it was the two of us running now and they'd pay us in cash and we got our bed for free, which is the biggest thing. Cause Western Europe has always been expensive. So it was the bed for free plus some Pash. And just being in that environment again, hostels are very, very cool places to hang out in. So it was just, um, yeah, it was just kind of nice, but no, it wasn't.

There were, there were no benefits to that. Except for, you know, not paying exorbitant rent in Western Europe. And at that point to answer your question, there were job boards on travel websites, like hostels.com, hostelworld.com. There were just job boards for like technical, casual work at that point, but it was basically working under the table.

I have no idea if any of this still exists, I haven't looked in like 15 years. Well, I mean, if you don't need to, right. Like why would you,

yeah, but that was just at the beginning of the EU and things were still willing, at least. So I'm sure in Western Europe now it would be almost impossible to get something like that.

It's much more stripped on not having those kinds of jobs available.

Rachel: Right, right, right. So you can't just like, you can't just enter the country and say, yeah, I'm just visiting and have them go. Oh, okay. Yeah.

Steph: Never it's much less likely to be, especially advertised on somewhere online where it could be seen, but I'm sure it probably still happens.

There's probably still a casual economy somewhere. I just, I have no idea if it's still how it still is, but that's how I got my start. So I would, uh, work in hostels for a few months. Okay. I would switch countries, which hospitals, and then come back when I was, I don't know, bored, homesick broke, and start over again.

Cheyenne: So what countries have you lived in?

Steph: It's been about 20 years and I'm going to get this totally wrong. Um, Well, Italy and countries tricky when we get to Edinburgh because Scotland do UK, whatever you want to call it. So I lived in Edinburgh, in a hospital and then Ireland Republic, net Northern. And then I back not working in households, but staying in them in the Czech Republic, Hungary, Nakia, and I'm probably missing somewhere else.

And then I started teaching overseas. So then it was slower. It was like yearly. So the places I lived in were Taiwan, Vietnam, China, Malaysia, Japan, the UAE, I guess we'll put Germany in there, even though I didn't work there. I still had a failure life for almost a year. Um, Albania, Croatia. That's probably most of them

Cheyenne: like, what's your favorite part of, of living abroad and then flip side, least favorite.

Steph: Ah, gosh. Favorite part. Is if the new I'm, I'm the type of person that likes to be surrounded by different and to be like a state of confusion is very comfortable for me. I'd like, I'd like to touch down in a country and not know what's happening and try to guess what people are saying, what they're doing, how things are done.

I like that kind of cultural confusion sounds very strange, but that's, that's where my brain kind of. The best is when I'm totally unaware of cultural expectations. And so that's one of my favorites. And within that, the misfits that exists within other cultures, like my goodness, it's like myself who have kind of fingers and legs and all kinds of things in different cultures.

They are totally okay because they're not expected to be from that one place. So it's kind of like this comfortable with cultural confusion place that a lot of us can hang out and be weird with each other. And there was that kind of community is also really nice. My least favorite thing is with living in multiple places, you get attached to certain.

People and places and things and foods and shoes and weirdest stuff. And when you made there, sometimes you can't experience the people, places or things ever again. And so you're constantly have this yearning for things and all these, like, like a piece of you is left in all of these places. And even if you go back, it's never the same.

Cheyenne: You had mentioned earlier that you were just before the pandemic looking to kind of settle down a little bit and in Germany, was there a particular reason for choosing Germany or. . .

Steph: Oh yeah. Yeah. Long, long, long, long list. Well, it's not that long stable economy, a good air quality because we had spent a number of years in, in countries where pollution was the norm, uh, where air pollution was very bad work-life balance.

Um, good healthcare, uh, relative safety. Which for me includes not a high, uh, gun carrying place, that kind of thing. So those are the main bits. Yeah. Kind of the opposite of where we were for years and years and years. If I wanted an outdoor place that was safe. And then. Sink my teeth into and just say permanently.

Oh. And the ability to, because the economy is so good once you're in the system, um, it's a five-year path to residency and yeah. So I was kind of hoping to stop moving, period.

Cheyenne: It was that still the goal?

Steph: No. Oh no, no. I mean the goal is to stop moving. Yeah. Yeah. But not there a lot has changed with my own professional development since.

Um, we moved there in January of 2020, and my current business no longer really fits into the very rigid structure that it would need to be in, to live in Germany. So, yeah, it's no longer a match, but it is still. Oh, pretty darn awesome place to live. Just not for me right now.

Rachel: He would have then like a, um, like an option to that would be a good fit for what your business looks like now?

Steph: My business now is all online. So as long as I'm in a place that doesn't have a very unforgiving tax structure and I can afford to live there. For long stretches, I would be gamed, but for me it would have to for long-term it would have to have those things, the outsource outdoorsiness good medical system, safety, blah, blah, blah.

And that those things are actually the hardest parts globally speaking. Yeah. That's fair.

Cheyenne: It is wild how different it looks now than it did three years ago. Yeah. I am obsessed with full-time travel. Like it is,

if it weren't for my spouse and like, She needs that financial stability and stuff. Weren't for that, I would travel full time.

Steph: Okay. I keep hearing this chapel full-time term, and this is rarely pretty. I'm not rarely, this is pretty new to me this term. Um, I know ex-pat I know backpacker. I know we do digital nomad.

But travel full-time to me like, okay. When I started living abroad, I, there was a term called round the world travel where you literally would take a year and go like different countries, like every few weeks. And that's what I hear in my head when I hear long-term travel, but I don't think that's what people need.

So can I ask you, what does that mean?

Cheyenne: So I think that in general it means different things to different people. So what it means for me is that. I would love for us to travel full time in the United States to start in our camper. I would love to go see all, all of the states and then eventually, uh, to go abroad that's that's like the dream and I pre pandemic.

I would often encourage her. She's a teacher. I would encourage her to apply to teach. Uh, now not so much, but, um, so that's kinda, that's what I mean when I say it, um, I don't necessarily think that that's what everybody means. I do know that there are some, I know that it's become increasingly popular in the last five years and then even more so since pandemic it's as best I can tell.

I mean, it's, it's become glamorized on social media. Which is both great and a little bit frustrating because there are people that are starting to do it without having done the research, not realizing how expensive it actually is. Really. Um, Rachel and I talked about this in a tiny living episode. In which there's this mentality that living tiny and traveling is somehow cheaper than living in sticks and bricks, people listening.

Won't be able to see my air quotes, but they were there. Um, and more often than that, that's not true. I mean, where I'm from, uh, your. Uh, Northern Minnesota, I live in a relatively rural area. And so that is definitely not a cheaper option if I were from San Francisco. And that's where I had been living full-time potentially could be true to be a cheaper option, but it's pretty rarely a money saver and that

it really, really, really depends on a million factors.

Um, but in general, it's not.

Steph: Like back when I was backpacking and I literally had a bag and lived or slept in a room with like 10 other people. Yeah. It was cheaper than having my own apartment, but that's. That's not really sustainable for most people for the rest of their lives. You know, that's not where even for a long term, that that's a very short term, kind of, we're doing this to have the budget, to do other things kind of existence.

Um, and especially right now. Oh my gosh. Can I just tell you the rents in Western Europe are insane right now? I know there's high inflation in the U S too, but we're mostly using Airbnb for our one month to three months rentals and. Because people are starting to travel again and because of just general inflation and now because of, um, uh, electricity slash gas issues and so on and so forth, like it's her calling up?

So I was seeing studios for like 14 to 1400 us dollars a month to 2000 studios with very uncomfortable furniture. And some of them asking you to pay utilities.

Two three weeks ago, specifically talking about that. Um, I don't know how I came across that, but it was essentially like the prices increased like 30 or 40% in, um, European countries. Like just boom. All of a sudden that reminded me. What are, um, what are oil prices over the.

I have no idea. I intentionally do not drive, so I'm not sure I'm not sure.

And we are very, very carefully picking our Airbnb to not pay utilities. So I'm literally unaware of the actual numbers that go with it. Um, but aware that we're hearing people talk about it a lot, but I don't have numbers. Sorry, but it's always, I think a few, um, for transportation wise has always been considerably higher in Europe, but I think because of like sanctions and things that Germany and other places are doing, it's increasing as well, but I'm not sure exactly what to, what.

Rachel: And it speaks for the appeal a little bit more of Europe versus the United States. And that in a lot of the continent, it is actually possible to say, oh no, I just don't drive. Do you know what I mean? Right. Like, so at my day job, I work at a university, um, and was working with a student who was planning on moving from New York city.

Too. So I live in the twin cities, metropolitan area in central Minnesota. So, you know, it's significantly smaller metropolitan area than New York city. Um, and this very young person was saying, oh, well, I'll just get a bus pass. And I was like, no, no, no, no, you don't understand yet. Right? This is not New York city level, public transportation.

Uh, Yeah, I, uh, actually my, my work life is swapped from when I first moved to the twin cities. I used to, um, live in St. Paul and then, uh, Drive to school in the city that I currently am living in. And now it's opposite. I live where I live and I work in St. Paul. They're about 15 miles from each other. My car got stolen at one point as a young adult.

Yeah, well, it's been awhile. It took me an hour and a half on the bus to make it 15 miles.

There isn't I was a bunch of transfers was four transfers. Sure. I got four transfers in 15 miles.

Cheyenne: The thing about public transportation in America that sets it apart from Europe is there is, there is a priority in Europe to make transportation accessible to people in America. That's not a thing. So for instance, we were in the area I live are having conversations around a train system that would connect us to the Metro area.

And we have quite a bit of opposition because the argument is that it will never sustain itself financially.

Rachel: Well, that's your problem, but it's been on the table for like 15 years, so I don't have high hopes.

Cheyenne: you know, I did, I stupidly did. And so I'm just, I'm like, I I'm angry about it all over again. Um, cause it's, it's been a conversation the last couple of months up here.

And I think that saying that, cause something is not going to financially sustain itself is the dumbest reason ever for not doing it. Like. I just, I can't, I can't, I can't, I'm going to start swearing a lot if I keep talking like this.

Steph: No, I agree with you 100%, there are so many other reasons how it benefits society than just a straight dollar amount, like so many, and actually on my list earlier of like pollution and all kinds of other medical and that kind of thing.

Public transportation actually was one of the things that I was looking for as well, which is part of the reason why. We're hopping around Europe three months, three months, three months in different places. Instead of coming back to the U S it potentially might be easier to be in the U S during the pandemic, but because we don't have to do with thesis or anything, we can, we can live there legally for however long we want, but coming back means potentially getting a car or month or two, depending on where we land.

Um, work-wise and, and living license stuff. And it just, I CA one, I hate driving to the expenses, the environmental damage, and so much just isolating to be in a car versus to be in public transit. Yeah. It's one of the things that I really dislike about the U S and we have, we had public transportation and we tore it all.

And went car heavy. I mean, it was a choice to tear up the public transportation infrastructure that we had in the United States. I mean, that's, that's a sick choice. As far as I'm concerned, you're preaching to the choir like,

Cheyenne: oh my gosh. In, in this obsession with travel that I have, I have like probably one of the worst cases of wanderlust that there ever was.

And I married somebody who craves stability and consistency, what we were thinking. I will never know it, actually. I, that's not true. I do know it works out very well. Great balance. She keeps me quite literally. Because otherwise I'd be in like, who knows where right now

Steph: I tell you what's really funny. And public transit wise is when we lived in Tokyo, Japan, when their public transportation system is in, in-state just, it's, it's huge.

It's fast. It's, it's just so bad. The only bad thing or the crowds. If you go on YouTube and look up. Uh, Tokyo subway during rush hour, that it's horrible. It's, it's crowded to the point kind of knocking the wind down a few bucks, but when they're one minute late, they will apologize. We don't see an announcement with an apology that the train is going to be one minute late.

And by train. I mean, Metro, I'm not, I don't even mean long distance trains, although they do that too. But any lateness is serious. Like they're on it and you can go almost anywhere with the local trains and the long distance trains. It's almost anywhere.

Cheyenne: So that's just wild to me because I, again, with this obsession, I have, I've been like really.

Consistently watching YouTube videos of people taking an Amtrak trains across the country here, which now is added to my list of things to do. Um, I have somehow I'm not sure how I've convinced my wife, that this is the thing that we should do. And she's fully on board. I don't think she, I don't, I don't think she understands what she's actually getting yourself into.

It's fine. Like everything else she'll realize at some point. She's very chill. So she'll be like whatever. But in one of the videos that I was recently watching, they were saying that Amtrak trains are notoriously at least 15 to 20 minutes late, at least because they share the railway with commercial trains who get the priority because that's who owns them.

And yesterday, as I was listening to this, all I could think was only in America and I get to throw it in and I'm super sorry. If you're offended by swearing. Fuck capitalism. I get to say it in like every episode.

Steph: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's so crazy. Yeah. Anyway, when we were in Berlin, the monthly passes were like 90 Euro, which is probably just over or just under a hundred us dollars.

And people bitched up the one side and down the other, and I'm like, as opposed to owning a car, no way I can go anywhere that the Metro and buses go for a hundred dollars a month. Sign me up.

Cheyenne: Yes. Transportation is such a, I mean, it's been a discussion in the United States for ever it's. I mean, it's a huge country and so much of it is so inaccessible to a majority of the people because. Yeah, we just don't have the infrastructure for it and we refuse to pay for it because it's not financially sustainable on its own.

And it's just stupid. And this is why we have a finance podcast.

Rachel: We're coming close to the end of our time here. Is there anything, um, that like we haven't talked about. Like, moving abroad, like preparing to move abroad, live abroad that we haven't talked about that you think would be important for people to know?

Steph: Yeah. Oh yeah. When you, when did the questions that you mentioned was what I did the first time abroad. And honestly, I was a mess and I didn't know what I was doing and I'm quite happy to experiment, but what has really helped me is learning along the way. So I've got a quick list of some things that some of the most impactful things financially that I learned along the way first and foremost, it doesn't matter if you're traveling.

Long-term. Or if you're live, like moving overseas, Peck half as much stuff and bring twice as much money. That is the best single piece of advice I ever got. And it was from a book. I don't remember which one, but yeah, because of the stuff that you bring, either won't work, you won't need it, or it just won't be for your lifestyle in that place.

So just bring as little as you can and, and more money because things will be available if you're coming from the us and you still have bills or. Uh, financial footprint in the U S literally purchased the U S phone number that doesn't have a phone attached to it and purchase a us address. There are companies that do this and that way you will have a consistent phone number and address no matter where you are in the world, it will make banking with your us banks so much easier.

And so many other things that you don't even realize now, and you can, again, purchase a lot of the, the mail forwarding systems are meant for folks. With like a wood yacht around the world or whatever that it started with that, but it's now accessible. I think ours is 150 or something us dollars a year for a place that gets our mail, scans it and emails it to us.

And it has been a lifesaver financially ex-pat or traveler groups on Facebook, Twitter. What have you asked people who were there now for current information? Videos are good. Articles are okay, but. Someone who's there in the place at that moment knows the most current prices knows any tricks or anything that might be a blip that you don't know.

And so asking them in real time is really, really helpful. And there's tons of groups either by city or by country or by region. You can find so many groups in so many places online. And last thing is grocery stores, not just for groceries, but if you're traveling long-term or if you're on a day trip where you just get to a place, go to grocery stores and get either pre-made foods.

Or like try to like find someone local to help you understand how to make the local food grocery stores can save you tons of money. Even the pre-made stuff that is more expensive than cooking it yourself will still save you much more than going to restaurants except for in north Southeast Asia. But in general, grocery stores are a huge money saver.

Cheyenne: Interesting. I would not have thought to go the route or the pre. Which I mean, we, we travel quite a bit as it is, but I pack a lot of our snacks and we do a lot of like trail mix type stuff and beef jerky to get us through. But we also, we spend a ridiculous amount eating out when we go places, because I'm like, well, I have to try.

Steph: And a lot of times you can try them in grocery stores. That's the thing is it's a bit spoiling using. Probably cheating. So I'll use Croatia. Like we would go to a grocery store in the Dalmatian palace, which in split, which is like the touristy area. And we'd go into grocery store like a spar or something and go to the premium section and.

Like locally cooked dishes and it like a small takeaway size for like maybe $2, the equivalent of $2. And it's local food made, you know, right there, but it's not like a sit down restaurant or something. Granted you have to find a place to eat it. But it's just, if you're looking to save a little bit more on one thing to spend on another.

And still get a local flavor the quick way to do it. Oh.

Rachel: As a teenager, I traveled to France with my grandparents and we did that. We did that exact thing actually like, uh, supermarkets kind of a lot in France. They also have a lot of, um, like roadside. Sandwich stands, yeah. It does also save you a lot.

Cheyenne: Well, in an effort to not keep you too, too long.

Thank you so, so much for joining us. And is there anything that you would like to say about your business or anything, anything like that before we close out.

Steph: I guess I'll just give the place. I mean, I do a podcast editing, but it's constantly changing and growing, expanding, so. Whenever people are listening to this, it might be different.So I'll just give the place and people can go check it out if they want to. They're curious. I have to spell it because my name is not critical, normal, whatever that means, uh, S T E P H F U C C I O, don't spell it slow. Very awkward, uh, dot com. And it has all of my podcasts, freestuff, including services, but also articles and put my own podcasts and different things on there.

Rachel: Thank you again, so, so much. And I'll make sure also to include your website in our show notes, such as they are. It's an area for growth.

Steph: Thank you. This has been a lot of fun. I love the question there. Insightful and very curious. I like it. I miss talking about this stuff and I hope that we're up those back, back, those forwards to something more, less scary.